Prayer request

October 26, 2007 — 101 Comments

Dear friends,

While freeing women to minister with their God-given to the entire body of Christ has been a very strong passion for me, it has not been the main focus of my ministry. In 1988 God called me to give of my time, my money and my talents to help Jehovah’s Witnesses find the truth about the real Jesus Christ and to come free from the bondage of the Watchtower. Several years ago the Lord answered the desire of my heart and allowed me to go into full-time ministry. As a video editor, researcher and full time apologist, I have been busy serving the Lord and my husband joined with me as we joined our ministry together with Keith and Lorri MacGregor of MacGregor Ministries working as a team to produce instructional DVDs on witnessing to the cults including correcting false doctrine spread by the cults against the essentials of the Christian faith.

In June of 2007 we moved to the city where the headquarters of MacGregor Ministries is located and we prepared to take over this very effective Canadian ministry/charity. However there has been very strong opposition to our ministry by those who oppose anyone who preaches the Gospel to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and other cult groups. The Canadian government has received several complaints against our charity that witnessing to the cults and exposing the false doctrine is not a “charitable” work.

MacGregor Ministries (MM Outreach) has been a registered Canadian charity since 1979 and neither Keith nor Lorri MacGregor have taken a salary from the ministry choosing instead to use the funds to spread the gospel of Jesus. Richard and I have also joined with the MacGregors working for the ministry without salary. With this complaint on file the Canadian government has chosen to start the process of shutting down our ministry saying that while preaching the gospel is a valid charitable work, reaching those in other faiths for Christ is not charitable and because this is considered to be our primary work they want to pull our charity status and take away our equipment and our funds that we have set aside for ministry work.

We have made attempts to separate our work of preaching the gospel to the cults from our regular work of ministering to the body of Christ by placing our web site and our quarterly magazine into the control of a new incorporated business that we set up, (MM Outreach Inc) however we are unsure if this will be good enough to stop the Canadian government from shutting us down. Yesterday we received another notice about still another complaint from someone who said that exposing other religions is not charitable.

Would you please pray for us that God will be glorified in our lives and in our ministry so that we can continue ministering to those who have lost their way in the world of the cults? We need God’s protection through this time of persecution. The next few weeks will be crucial as the Canadian government may or may not allow the changes that we have made to stop the process of deregistering the charity. Almost 30 years of ministry is at stake and freedom to minister as God has called us.

Will you stand with us in prayer?

Cheryl

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101 responses to Prayer request

  1. Cheryl, Count me in

  2. You know we’re all a-standin’ 😉

    All I know is that God will do whatever he decides to do, and no government can stop him. We don’t always know why doors open or shut, or whether God is telling us to persevere or move on. So I would pray for a clear direction from God, not pushing this way or that way. We always have peace when we know his will, whichever way it goes. Of course that’s easy to say, but I believe it’s the right thing to say.

  3. I am not Canadian nor do I play one on TV. It would seem that your efforts to have 2 organizations is the way to go. Perhaps talk to some other religious charitable orgs and see what they do. I have no idea what the laws are, but it may be the case that doing some things cannot be considered charitable.

    I think you are doing a good work and want to stand with you.

  4. Thanks Greg, teknomom and Don.

    Don,
    Yes it is a fact that according to the Canadian government some things are not charitable. Well, it is charitable if you witness to atheists and refute their belief. But it is not allowed if you witness to one who already has a religion. JW’s are out-of-bounds and if the government has its way, they will not be reached for Christ. Jesus has other ideas different than the government.

  5. My Saviour and Almighty God, Jesus Christ, I pray that your will be done in this matter, I believe much is at stake here, lots of souls hanging in the balance, whatever the government decides I pray that you will sustain this ministry, so that many of the lost in the cults will get help from Christians to know you and be set free from bondage and false teachings, that they may know the true and awesome Gospel. In the name of Jesus Christ I pray.

  6. Thank you for your prayer Martin!

  7. Cheryl, I am spreading your prayer request around to a number of our prayer partners.

  8. Lord,

    Please sustain this ministry. By Your Spirit, cause it to flourish, Your own Life energizing it, bringing to fruition those things in it that You love. Grow in the hearts of Your servants that they might continue to see You in Your glory in ever-increasing measures, and help them reach those You love who aren’t yet aware of Your goodness.

    Give our brothers and sisters wisdom as they try to negotiate how to cooperate with government without losing their saltiness. Gaurd them from the evil one.

    In Your name we ask these things, Jesus.

  9. Wayne and Molly, thank you for standing with us. We believe that this is a spiritual battle that has not surprised God. He is able to save us through this even though we do not know yet how. We are trusting that in the end his will, will be done and God will get the glory as he is the one in control.

  10. You and your family are already on my regular prayer “list”. I’ll be trusting God to guide you in exactly what He wants in all of this.

    many blessings,
    M.

  11. Hope you are doing OK, Cheryl. Just saw you take a beating on CARM.
    :(

  12. Hey Justa Berean,

    Thanks for your cyber hugs and for keeping us in your prayers. It is quite an amazing thing how those who are in control on CARM know how to take their own failures and turn it around make the one asking the question to be the one who is the one in the wrong. Since Matt called me “radio poison” on his Friday’s show, I am sure that my time on his discussion board is probably coming to a close. I will be requesting the audio file from the radio show to keep on record and wait for my requested apology from Matt. He will never stop attacking other Christians if he isn’t called to account for what he does. Honestly he is the most unloving radio host who is a fellow apologist that I have ever met. No one else has called me such names.

  13. The really bad thing is that he is teaching other Christians to do the same. He is encouraging unChristlike behavior among Christians. I’ve rarely seen such abusive language freely bandied about among Christians at other Christians.

    And you are correct. Matt calls Christians heretics and other mischaracterizations on his whim and the ones who point it out are censored. If he is so “right” for doing so, why censor those who point out his words.

    The fact that Matt edited out his insult shows a conscience.

  14. Justa Berean,
    Diane says that she had a “technical” problem and it just so happened that the insult was erased by “God”. From what I can remember there is nothing else removed but the insult. I want to get the original tape and compare it and then the story will be clear. The fact though is that I was maligned on live radio and even with the insult gone now, it still was heard by many.

    **Correction, I listened to two programs on Friday, one live and one taped and I got mixed up on which program the slander was on. The program is the Thursday program and Matt’s words against me are still there on the tape. It has not been edited out**

    When will he stop this? It appears not until he is brought to account and even then he will likely continue. I asked several days ago when he will be answering my questions on his board. Remember all the questions he asked me? Well I answered them clearly with scripture and then asked him four of my own and he has never answered them. Tonight I got a response from his team that he will be dealing with the issue in an article on his web site when he has time. It appears that he will not subject himself to being cross examined by me on his discussion board. He won’t allow me back on his radio show to be cross examined on his radio program. He has indeed silenced me to the best of his ability. But he will have to answer to God for silencing the messenger.

    Oh boy, does it feel good not having every word I say attacked! The attackers were many on that board and it gives a good look at the fruit that comes from the hierarchical rule where one man is the boss and people can be stepped on and stepped over at will. It isn’t attractive. I am really seriously going to have to get back to answering questions on my own blog. It is enough of answering questions on Matt’s blog for the time being.

  15. Praying for you, Cheryl.
    I wish I could help financially,
    but… hubby keeps tight control on the purse strings.
    Where in Canada?
    Would there be an option of moving some of the ministry to the US?
    (that’s my pragmatism speaking, not necessarily God’s solution)

    Here is something from Graham Cooke Drawing Close about God’s approach to problems:

    The Holy Spirit wants to do two things with us: First, He intends to get us to a place where we trust God for everything and with everything; and second, He seeks to bring us to a place where He can trust us. The Father will always trust what He sees manifested of the Son in our lives…. the inhabitation of Jesus. It’s a pleasure to trust God, knowing that His great love will catch us, even if we fall off the edge of a cliff. This great God with a seemingly ludicrous battle plan March arougn the enemy for seven days and then shout, He’ll say, winking at you the whole time. “Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves,” He says (Luke 10:3). Fortunately, you’re a lamb with a Lion as friend.

    I see you as one whom God trusts, Cheryl.

  16. oops, when I copied it, I missed a line from the book…
    about God’s unconventional approach to impossible odds :)

    from Drawing Close by Graham Cooke :

    This great God will send us into battle against impossible odds with a seemingly ludicrous battle plan March around the enemy for seven days and then shout, He’ll say, winking at you the whole time.

    It reminds me of the Ten Commandments where Charlton Heston as Moses stands on the shore of the Red Sea and says (approximately) “Stand back and Behold the Salvation of our GOD”
    Its when things appear impossible that GOD will be glorified.

  17. Hi Charis,

    Thanks for your encouraging words! We have been looking at our options and will be pursuing an area that appears to be opening up to us. We are not worried that we will be shut down in the spiritual realm because we are not giving up. If things progress it will just be harder for us but not impossible. Our God is the one who called us into ministry and the enemy can roar but the Lord Jesus is the Lion who is sovereign and above all. We would prefer to stay the way we have been but if we are forced to start over without the government’s blessing, then so be it.

  18. Cheryl,

    WOW! That must have hurt a lot.

    Here are some things I hope I would be able to do if I were ever in your shoes:
    1. Remember that Jesus and co. were shamed for our sake, you have good company.
    2. Forgive Matt as soon as possible. This means not wishing retribution. Not wishing to settle the debt.
    3. Act redemptively, seeking restoration. This may include getting the tape of the show and confronting Matt, asking for a public apology and then following Mat 18 but always with a motive of restoration.
    4. Finally, let go and let God work. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict someone of their sin.

    I am paying for you.

  19. typo: I am praying for you.

  20. Don,

    Thank you for your prayers. I agree with your points. I have already requested the audio file because Matt needs to be called to account. If he is left to this kind of behavior he is going to spin out of control. I have made it clear that if he publicly apologizes, then this is all that is required. I am doing the best to seek restoration. It is doubtful that he will comply without some pressure. I do not believe that I can change his heart but I would like him to think twice before maligning another Christian. The world needs to see our love not the attacks.

  21. “The attackers were many on that board and it gives a good look at the fruit that comes from the hierarchical rule where one man is the boss and people can be stepped on and stepped over at will. It isn’t attractive.”

    This is so true, Cheryl. I’ve been watching this phenomenon for quite a while. The only explanation is that sin reaps sinful attitudes. By their fruit we will know them.

    And this is also why it is so important for those who have the truth on a subject to not respond back to evil treatment with anything resembling it. Even though its responding rather than attacking, that will not be acknowledged. We must stick to the facts and leave character assassinations and foul adverbs to them. Getting angry doesn’t help. And that is another reason, we are all so blessed with your repeatedly kind responses in the face of mean spirited words.

  22. Justa Berean,

    The apologetic community is one community that I thought would not get so low. I was wrong. Sometimes I think that God allows this so that we can grow in grace in the very midst of the hate. I know that I have really grown in the last two years. One thing I know…I am not willing to give up serving the Lord because of the chaff in the midst of the wheat. We do need to keep our eyes on Jesus and his example is the only faithful example for us to follow.

    I really appreciate your lifting me up as an example. I have felt very low today and I really needed that!

  23. Cheryl, they are now claiming that you did not hear Matt say directly that you are radio poison, but that he was quoting his listeners who told him that. And that it is still on the tape.

    http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=2027456#post2027456

  24. Cheryl,

    I have seen you as a great example of a humble attitude. God has specifically showm me that I could learn from you in this area. You are a good example.

    Here is the quote from what is claimed to be a transcript:
    ————–
    matt is reading the text of an email which cheryl sent him, and interrupts himself to state his opinion, and says:

    “now this is to me: cheryl is a woman who wants to be in control, and a woman who doesn’t know when to just let it go. I think that she has blown it heavily, that she has undermined the Christian church, with her erring views. I’m gonna be tackling her specifically, later on, and here she continues: “

    matt goes back to reading her email, and i won’t quote her email, but she asks him when he is gonna have her back on to talk about 1tim2:15, and he says that there is something that she doesn’t know about that scripture. then, in reference to her asking when she is gonna’ be back on the show matt continues:

    “now here’s the thing, I know cheryl’s listening, I’m not having you back on because people called you radio poison, and incessant, you drove me up the wall because I ask you a simple question that would be a yes or no answer, you went on for five and ten minutes trying to give me a dissertation and trying to be the teacher and you are making stuff up as far as I am concerned about how to make things work. I had people say ‘don’t do it again, don’t do it again,” and I agree. you are extremely frustrating, extremely frustrating, and your followers are the same, so uh that answer to that is “no.” okay having said that…”

    whereupon matt takes another phone call. he didn’t call her poison, he quoted others as having said that. i sure hope this helps. Peace, in His love, joe
    ——

    I wish to point out that what is chosen to be said by anyone is their choice, they cannot hide behind the idea that someone else said it.

  25. I posted this on their forum:

    When a person chooses to repeat what someone else has said, it is that person’s choice. Even assuming someone told that to Matt, it was Matt’s choice whether to repeat it.

    I cannot escape responsibility for what I say but claiming that someone else told it to me. It is ENTIRELY my choice what I say.

    Also, for Matt to quote this and not immediately qualify it or repudiate it gives an implicit assent to it. Otherwise, why even quote it at all? But Matt did not do that.

  26. Diane said that it was Thursdays show that was posted, not Fridays. So the question is did Cheryl hear it on thursday or Friday. I thought she said Friday. Diane said that Fridays show was posted in 2 parts.

    I’d want to get the original tape from the radio show.

  27. Justa Berean,

    I stand to be corrected. I listened to two shows on Friday. One was live and the other one was recorded from Thursday. I must have the two shows mixed up. I only heard half of the live show on Friday. I was sure it was on the live show I was listening to but I stand corrected. So I go back and listen to the Thursday show and there it is. Repeating a slander is slander. Matt said:

    “I’m not having you back on because people called you radio poison”

    He is not having me back on because of people’s slander that he repeated. He needs to apologize to me for stating that I cannot come back on because of this slander. I apologize for quoting the wrong program. I listened to it on Friday but it was actually Thursday’s show.

  28. Even though Matt is hugely in the wrong not only for the “radio poison” quote but for several other things he said about you, I recommend that you do post an apology for saying that Matt said it, when in reality he quoted another who said it. It’s still wrong, but you need to be straight in every aspect. And also, Diane feels you accused her of doing something she didn’t. I recommend that you show your integrity where Matt is showing little to none. These are small things compared to the eternal Truths of healing, deliverance, freedom from the bondages of wrong teachings.

  29. Don,

    Thank you for posting this on Matt’s site:

    “When a person chooses to repeat what someone else has said, it is that person’s choice. Even assuming someone told that to Matt, it was Matt’s choice whether to repeat it.

    I cannot escape responsibility for what I say but claiming that someone else told it to me. It is ENTIRELY my choice what I say.

    Also, for Matt to quote this and not immediately qualify it or repudiate it gives an implicit assent to it. Otherwise, why even quote it at all? But Matt did not do that.”

    That is exactly how I took it. I wanted to hear it again myself but for some reason I thought it was the live broadcast I was listening to at the time not the recorded one and I couldn’t find the quote on the Fridays tape when it came up. However the fact is that Matt gave this as the reason for why he is not having me back, so then he has given public assent to the slander. I appreciate that you have posted on Matt’s board because I cannot go back there right now with all the attacks that have been given me. I was told by one poster that I was going to the lake of fire. I have had enough.

  30. Dear Cheryl,

    I saw it. I just went walking and prayed for you.
    OH how I want to go and post something!
    He used to call the children “stupid idiot!” and “if you had a brain it’s be lonely!”. When we got into marriage counseling, he changed it to “you’re ACTING like an idiot” and somehow thought that made it “right”. :(

    Shake the dust off your feet.
    If he has a wife and children pray for them.
    I’m sure you are not his only target!
    FWIW, I don’t agree that YOU should apologize.
    I went to therapy for 3 years. One time he told me the way he can tell I’m still a victim is that I apologize when I didn’t do anything wrong. Apologizing to a bully enables them, makes them believe they are right.

    Here is a prayer which I used from time to time.
    If its good enough for Paul, its good enough for me :)

    2Ti 4:14 “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:”

  31. Charis,

    I apologized because I got the date wrong. I also wanted to re-listen to the quote myself and couldn’t find it. I know that he said that I couldn’t come back on the program because I was “radio poison”. Quoting someone else bad mouthing me is wrong and using that to silence me is equally as wrong. However I did fail to be accurate in my date and I do love accuracy. Perhaps one can be tempted to be hasty if they are the one who has been maligned. I will not be back on his forum so anyone who wants to post there go ahead. The attitude of ripping at the sheep is just more than I can take. However I have learned that I can be called evil things (heretic, false teacher, radio poison) and still be okay. God has promised a special blessing when people say all kinds of false things against us and despitefully use us. I will pray for Matt, his wife and his kids. This attitude certainly must affect them too and I trust that Matt’s rudeness will not turn off people from the gospel. I have never felt loved or even liked by him and I knew that from the beginning. A year and a half ago he promised he would be kind and respectful but his original email to me was filled with mocking. I should have known that he likes to win the argument and he has no concern whatsoever for anyone who does not agree with him.

    The dust is wiped from my feet and time to move on.

    One other thing, yes I know what you mean about the apology thing. I have always apologized for everyone else’s sin but I have done so not because I felt a victim but because I didn’t feel a victim. If there was even a shred of evidence that I might be to blame for someone else’s hurt, then I do not want to stand in their way between them and the Lord. I would rather apologize and risk ridicule then to say nothing and in any way hurt my dear brother or sister in Christ. Some I know are not really brothers in Christ and we can get a hint of that because of the fruit that we see coming out from them. But in this life we cannot fully judge that. They may be a broken vessel just striking out in their pain. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt before I give up on them.

  32. Charis, one last thing. You said:

    He used to call the children “stupid idiot!” and “if you had a brain it’s be lonely!”. When we got into marriage counseling, he changed it to “you’re ACTING like an idiot” and somehow thought that made it “right”. :(

    I know what you mean. This kind of abuse is common from those who accept the hierarchical position that men are entitled to talk however they want because they are “in charge” and when they think it doesn’t look good, they can manipulate things to their advantage. It makes me feel very sad that there is so much turned upside down in this world. When men truly love their women, this is the first sacrifice to lay the foundation of a better marriage, better communication and a real one-flesh union. I trust that things will change for you because my heart goes out to you.

  33. Well done Cheryl. IMO your integrity puts the man to shame.

    You are so correct that this type of abuse is common among gender hierarchalists. May God have mercy on all those who are unwisely taking up these bad examples.

  34. They posted this.

    WIM-Suspended 3 days- Infractions and rule violations – may return to CARM 3 days from today Monday- l0/29/07. Section III Rule # 5

  35. Justa Berean,
    Thank you! It has all come at a bad time for me as it appears that Satan wants to tear down everything around me. I pray that God keeps me safe.

    Don,
    Thanks for letting me know about the 3 day suspension. They may as well make it 303 days because I don’t intend to go back. The unkind nature of this board is amazing. If they were atheists, I could see it. But the fact that they claim to be followers of Christ makes it all the more amazing. My eyes have been opened and I guess that is a good thing. Someone told me that they had come out of the complementarian camp because they could no longer stand the vitriolic nature. I heard it but I didn’t believe it could be that bad. Honestly guys, if you have seen a lot of this and survived with your heart still in tact, I give you so much credit for your tenacity. Guys, may I say that you are my heroes. I appreciate you more than I could ever say. Now I am going to go away and cry…. I am not as thick skinned as I would like. Maybe tomorrow. May the Lord Jesus get all of the praise for whatever grace he has shown me and that I have been transparent enough to let other see that it isn’t me but a tender Savior grieving for his flock.

  36. Cheryl,

    May the touch of the Healer be apparent to be you today.

    FWIIW, I think you tried to handle this much better than I think I would have. My model when persecuted for righteousness is Jesus when he said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

  37. I admit, I allowed myself to get really low and then Jesus reached down and gave me such a spiritual hug that I know things will be okay. What happened? Well, I got a call this afternoon from a Messianic Jewish Rabbi who loved my DVDs and wanted to order more to put into a Calvary Chapel! I was told that my way of handling the opposition was so gentle and Christlike and my exegesis was excellent and very Hebraic. Isn’t Jesus good??

  38. Cheryl,

    If it’s any consolation, I’ve been stabbed in the back so many times by fellow believers that I whistle when the wind blows. It hurts. The first time, you pick yourself up and try again. And again. And then again. And it still hurts. Eventually, you just learn to pick your battles and not set yourself up as a target for jackals. (Or as I say in the summertime, I have to go outside and feed the mosquitoes.”)

    We all want to believe the best about other people, especially believers. But there are carnal Christians, even among apologists. They are still worldly in at least some areas of their lives, and when you expose those areas they can get ugly.

    I used to fight in the trenches too, but now I focus on just blogging and letting whoever wants to read, read. If they want to comment, fine, but I only ask people to treat me as I treat them: I don’t go to anyone else’s blog to bash them, call them names, etc. If I don’t like what they say, I just move on. There’s constructive criticism, and then there’s just plain mean-spiritedness.

    All I know is, “The first will be last, and the last will be first”. Male supremacists need to ponder that truth for a while.

  39. FWIIW, one of the things I am studying is “Hebraic roots of Christianity” and I agree with the Messianic Jew (altho I am no expert) on his compliment. We need to think more Hebraically and less like a Greek, except for those verses written to Greeks.

    (Timothy and Paul were Jews, Timothy being circumcized in Acts 16, which some people pass over as it does not seem to fit with Acts 15.)

  40. Well I’ve received a warning and an infraction for daring to say that Matt was less than perfect on his radio show. Yeeeeesh, I can disagree with my pastor and still be allowed to speak but I guess CARM’s founder is more important. And here I thought I was being charitable. Guess not quite. :)

  41. This is what I figured out – that the reason that there appears to be only CARMites on this board is that they kick out everyone who disagrees with Matt. Disagreement doesn’t have to be done in a uncharitable way, it just has to be disagreement and you are threatened and then gone. It is almost cult-like. The wrong questions are not allowed. In essence fear reigns or else one becomes a yes-man. This is what strict heirarchists do. They love to rule over others and their rules must be followed without question. Jesus said that this is the world’s way of authority but it is not to be so in the church. True biblical authority is servanthood and correct me if I am wrong, but I see Matt as being nothing like a servant. He is not empowering women to serve, he is constantly holding up the restrictions on women. I see it as Matt and others like him as strongly defending their own territory. They won’t accept anyone as pulling on their male security blanket. Is this possible that this is insecurity in who they are as males?

  42. Hi Cheryl,
    You are in my prayers!
    I want to thank everyone for encouraging Cheryl.
    God Bless.

  43. Thank you Jael! You are a mighty warrior friend!~

  44. In answer to your question a few posts up…
    I’m gonna tell you probably more than you wanted to know 😉

    What is at the root of this kind of obsession with power and control?
    Well, in my dh’s case, he was sexually abused with porn exposure (and possibly sodomized) in preschool. His daddy saw him doing something in the barn that 4 year olds don’t know how to do unless they have been abused, and his daddy was afraid he was going to be a homosexual…. soooo the men in the family pushed porn on him, by the time he was 12 yo the walls of his room were plastered with porn. The intense control issues are because he didn’t have control as a pre-school child.

    Empathy develops in children around age 6. If a child is seriously traumatized at an age earlier than this, they do not develop empathy, they are “arrested” at the age of trauma. Men without empathy are capable of hideous crimes; they have no empathy. I am in recovery from childhood sexual abuse. I read a book and the description of the “traits of a sexual offender” sounded very much like my husband! People abused like him grow up and abuse others! That one reason I think God put us together. I was stuck at 12 and totally compliant. He didn’t need to look for a child. He married one.

    Sound like a lot of psychobabble?
    But I think there is scripture to support the woundedness of these people. Personally, it really bugs me when Christians are so hateful toward homosexuals. Homosexuality is a fruit of SEVERE PAIN AND TRAUMA in childhood! Jesus came …
    …to preach the gospel to the poor;
    …to heal the brokenhearted,
    …to preach deliverance to the captives,
    …and recovering of sight to the blind,
    …to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luke 4

    Jesus’ approach is not “shame on you, you wicked SINNER!”
    NO! Jesus came to “set the captives FREE!”
    HE has compassion; HE has empathy!

  45. Oh, and as for the woman in authority who sounds quite angry about “husband as master”
    She’s trapped. She thinks submission means obedience.

    I somaticized for many years… had migraines, stomach trouble, depressed… But then when I started counseling and recovery from the CSA I had rage episodes where I could really be quite abusive toward my husband. I didn’t have any power to stop the abuse in childhood… and I didn’t think that I still had any power as a grown woman to stop abuse, because I want to please GOD and GOD wants me to submit to my husband and if submission means obedience then :(

    Cheryl, I don’t cry when I get abused. I get angry.
    Really I and he are so much better but it has not been an easy road.
    And I had to STOP the obedience and stand up for myself and my children!

  46. Charis,
    Yes Jesus did come to set the captive free. Deep hurt like this can cause real trust issues.

    When you said you were stuck at 12, do you mean you were physically 12 years old, or that you didn’t mature emotionally past 12 even though you were older?

    This is certainly a by-product of an abusive male ruler. The problem then becomes what to do about it. You cannot change another person, you can only change yourself. Funny thing is that abusive men often turn the sin around and blame the victim so that the victim gets victimized twice. This is what happened to Eve. She got deceived and then blamed by Adam for his own sin. Her solution is our solution. We need to learn how to know and trust the Lord Jesus. This is the journey of our lives and each test is a stronger one than the last one. I hope your journey will be filled with people who can speak into your life the words of life from the Master. Your healing isn’t dependent on your husband. You can get freedom and healing no matter what happens in his life. It is just easier if he gets healing as you do.

  47. Charis,
    You are right. Submission doesn’t mean obedience. Submission rather is an act of power under control.

  48. When you said you were stuck at 12, do you mean you were physically 12 years old, or that you didn’t mature emotionally past 12 even though you were older?

    I mean that part of me stopped growing right there at 12, so I handled some things very immaturely. For one, I had what I refer to as “brain freeze”. Whenever I felt attacked in any way, my ability to reason shut down and I was helpless to defend myself. I literally NEVER backtalked to my husband or defended myself. I assumed that was disrespectful and unsubmissive. When my first daughter came home from college, I thought they had turned my baby into a FEMINIST! She had her own OPINIONS about stuff!

    I have been in recovery for 3 years. Recovery is very like growing up (at long last!) and learning to speak up as an adult woman. I was terrible at it at first. I could really see how, in many ways, my children are far far more mature than I, and very wise. They speak into my life.

    And God provided me with an anointed male Christian therapist who was able to BE Jesus with skin on for me and two older women mentors who are walking with me. Very like a daddy figure and a mommy figure to rewrite the bad stuff. I think churches need wise, spiritually mature elders to do this for their members. Note 1Thes 2:7 and 11.

  49. Cheryl,

    If you care, now Diane S, a moderator there, is explicitly and repeatedly calling your teachings radio poison in posts. Apparently, some listeners called in to say they turned off the show. The idea of women as church leaders was just so far out and repulsive, they considered it harmful to the body of Christ, as then eventually anything goes. The posters also self-reinforce each other that Matt did nothing wrong, yet fail to discuss the idea of repeating something someone else says is a choice. They think that as he did not actually say it about you, and merely repeated it, he is innocent. I see this as very dangerous thinking.

    I do think there are some lessons here.
    1. If there is ever a need to be confrontational with someone who disagrees with you, be sure to state things accurately.
    2. Teaching is VERY different than being on a talk show with an adversarial host who controls the mike. In the former, truth counts, in the latter, sound bites count. This is especially true with a seeming non-obvious interpretation. There are many people who never gives some verses a second thought, except to accept what their pastor tells them it means.

  50. They think that as he did not actually say it about you, and merely repeated it, he is innocent. I see this as very dangerous thinking.

    Especially for the one who think that way!!!
    Its called enabling self-justification.
    BTDT (been there and done that).
    I put my dh on SUCH a pedestal.
    He could do no wrong.
    It was really quite idoatrous :(

  51. Isn’t it comforting to know that all authority belongs to God?
    ever so comforting….

    Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

  52. FWIW, Cheryl, I learned in counseling that the crises are the opportunites for the greatest growth and progress; and that the furnace gets really hot before the breakthrough. The crises in my marriage had the same elements: insults, put downs, power and control. They sound like mean, unchristian bullies, but they are really afraid. Afraid of losing control/power.

    God taught me to REST.
    “take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light and you will find REST for your souls”
    “in repentance and REST is my salvation
    in quietness and trust is my strength”

  53. TBH Cheryl,
    I’m really not sure that God wants women to be head pastors over men. Look at the kind of abuse they take?
    GOD cares about us and want to PROTECT us from abusive people!!!

    Why do you have to convince them?
    Why don’t you just let them keep their churches “authoritative women free zones”? If they are disobeying GOD and muzzling the modern day Priscillas and Phoebes then they will have to answer to GOD for their rebellion.

  54. Don,

    Thanks also for keeping me up to date without me having to go back on that abusive board. The fact that CARM’s VP keeps calling me “radio poison” shows that the charge is accurate. They are not just repeating a charge that they are not applying themselves to me. If someone went onto Matt’s board and said that others had said that Matt was ____ (fill in the blank with any kind of slander) then the person repeating the slander would be disciplined. Matt’s repeating of the charge was wrong and if he was a real confident man of God he would apologize for repeating it.

    Matt had said at one point that he has no idea why no body would agree to go on the radio with him to debate the women’s issue. Well this is clearly the reason why. Matt is verbally abusive (he himself acknowledged that he was hard on me) and those who value love and respect do not want to be abused. The only reason I went on the program is because of some of the women I heard speaking about their calling into ministry and Matt telling them they are not allowed. I cared enough to be abused myself to help even one person. I have been praying that God will give me fruit. If I know that I have helped even one person because of what I have been through, then it will seem less of a struggle for me.

    I also value accuracy and the problem with me is that I listened to two of Matt’s shows in one day and one of them was live. It was wrong of me to be confused about what show I listened to. I could make excuses about how I got confused but that wouldn’t help. When the Friday show was put up I was sure the live show was where the very unkind charge was and it wasn’t there. Because they put the show up in two pieces I thought it had been edited out. If the show had been put up in one piece I would have realized my mistake right away. I am not blaming them for my mistake. However because I was sure the charge was on the Friday edition, I had nothing to listen to again (I thought) and that is why I posted on Matt’s board.

    The fact is that I screwed up and for a researcher who is nit-picky about details, it is frustrating (and wrong) to state something that you don’t have the material to re-listen to. The fact is also that Matt was wrong for stating such an unkind thing about me on the air. It really hurt me even more so than the charge of heretic. To call me poison (through another’s words), and one who is responsible for undermining the church is just over the edge. I am responsible for undermining the church? And Matt can get away with all of this because he hides behind someone else. Someone who shoots another believer in the back and hides behind someone else who has a gun in their hand might be called a name themselves.

    The real problem is that I was teaching in the debate and Matt cannot allow a woman to teach on the radio. This reminds me of the Jewish leaders who stood as a gate before the people. Jesus said that they were not gaining entrance into heaven and they weren’t letting others who wanted to go in, go into heaven. Matt appears to be holding back my teaching because he doesn’t want people to hear it. The fact is that my exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:15 has never yet been refuted and this is the key conclusion of the entire prohibition passage in 1 Timothy 2. For Matt to say that he knows something that I don’t know is ludicrous. His claim to know the answer when he doesn’t he isn’t giving it out is like the tactics that the JWs have used with me. It is an appeal to knowledge that is never given out and that appeal is supposed to impress. Those who claim to have the answer but never give it out or who will not allow their answer to be publicly challenged are less than honest.

  55. Charis,
    Women may be gifted as Pastors according to Ephesians 4:11. It is God who calls and gifts. As far as head pastors over men, I see nothing in scripture that says that one believer is to take authority over another believer no matter what the gender is. Our concept of authority and a single leader in a church is far from what the early church experienced and far from what the scriptures advocate. Leaders are to be servants not bosses. The leadership is to equip the saints for ministry. They are not to sent forth to bar the saints from ministry.

  56. You are such a good role model!
    You and your friends!
    I’m so glad I met you!

    (But I still never heard of Matt Slick. Who’s he? 😉 )

    Is he in the same church as Beth Moore?
    If so, don’t worry, the women are learning to search the scriptures for THEMSELVES! :) God is taking care of HIS precious beloved daughters!

  57. Matt says that men’s position is to stop women from being pastors and elders. He also thinks that men’s position is to stop women from teaching the bible with authority. I didn’t get a chance to ask him but from what he has said and not said, I believe that he doesn’t allow a woman to teach the bible with authority to women either. Teaching with authority is a responsibility for men alone according to these kinds of hierarchists. Women may teach material that men have written and they may teach the men’s thoughts on scripture, but teaching any one with authority seems to be verboten. Maybe someone could peg Matt on whether a woman is allowed to teach women the bible with authority. Somehow I don’t think he would answer that question because he refused to answer my question on whether a woman (not a pastor) is allowed to teach the bible with authority to men.

  58. I agree with #55
    I just hate to see you and women leaders take such a beating! :(

    Adam was supposed to protect the garden.
    Adam’s sons fail.
    Maybe 1Tim 2:11-15 is God’s protection for women.

  59. Thank you Charis!

    Matt said he will die fighting against women leaders in the church even if the whole church goes against him. He lives in Boise, Idaho and runs a web site and ministry called CARM. He has some good things on his web site that I used for helping a couple stay away from universalism, however his attitude of attacking anyone who believes differently on issues that he has deemed himself as essential would cause me to warn people to stay away from him. This kind of attitude is not godly nor is it effective body ministry.

  60. “you are poison”
    “you are a heretic”
    “you are a slanderer”

    there is the log
    and the splinter

    Think of him holding up a mirror and saying it. :(
    Cheryl, don’t come into agreement with lies!
    You don’t have to defend yourself!

  61. “Maybe 1Tim 2:11-15 is God’s protection for women.”

    Nope. And don’t worry about me. God has many difficult ways to mature me and I am not a runner. I refuse to stay away from things that will be for my benefit just because they are hard to take or cause me to have emotions. What won’t kill me will make me stronger. I heard this saying from a woman who was run over by a car and lost a good portion of her leg, lost a daughter to murder, lost another daughter to the JWs and because of the JWs had grandchildren born that she was not able to see. She is a precious Christian who has been through more struggles and more abuse than I could ever imagine. But her experiences have made her stronger and she did not run away. Women too have strength and emotions in no way lessens that strength.

  62. #59 that is enlightening!
    my mentor is constantly reminding me “consider the source”
    deceived comes to mind.
    (has he called you deceived? :p)

  63. #62 Yes he has called me deceived and also a deceiver (through Diane). I do not see how he can also call me a Christian sister and a godly woman, but he has called me those things as well on one of his programs.

  64. re: #59
    unsubmissive comes to mind too
    all about authority over everyone else and never under any accountability.

    submission is not intended to be the exclusive province of women and children…

    don’t get me going….

    Anyway, Cheryl, I’m off to Bible Study now.
    I’m praying for you.!

  65. I don’t believe Matt’s lies. I do wish I could reach his audience. There are precious ones who do believe him and have given up ministry because of Matt’s influence. God is the one who called me into ministry and Matt Slick has no power over me to take me out of ministry.

    This is the day that the Lord hath made. We will rejoice and be glad in it! Praise the name of the Lord who gives joy in the morning!

  66. Charis, yes that is it! No accountability. Who calls Matt to accountability? He shoots any who try and removes them. God will deal with Matt in the end and I sincerely hope that Matt’s eyes are opened before that time because he has a whole lot of explaining to do before God about his treatment of the sheep.

  67. its all his logs
    he’s lobbing them over at you

    “deceived, heretic, slanderer, poison”

    what is IN A MAN’S HEART comes out of his mouth.
    I fear for him, Cheryl. :(

    I found you ever so gracious on that board.
    You are a good role model to me of Eph 4:29.
    I have lots of room to grow there.

    Love Ya! Charis

  68. just one more before I go out…
    from http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6512
    Chuck Colson “When Ego Trumps Accountability”

    We all have, I discovered, an infinite capacity for self-justification. I knew I could do no wrong, and I could persuade anyone I was right in any event. Well, I went to prison.

    People who are successful are particularly vulnerable. Nobody tells us “no,” and if we think we’re doing the right thing, as Wolfowitz thought he was, we are really then in peril.

    That’s why, after I got out of prison I committed to always have a group of people I respected around me and to submit to them for any major decision I had to make. For thirty years of ministry, this has protected me from myself.

    I’ve seen Christian leaders, sadly, without accountability, and often they fall hard. Everybody, at every level of life, needs an accountability group—people you can turn to and lean on and trust yourself to. The heart is infinitely deceitful.

    I suspect that the world will continue to produce men like Wolfowitz—brilliant men who go astray because they’re so confident of their own abilities, they become blind.

    The Wolfowitz story is a cautionary tale. Every Christian in authority, from a parent to a boss in the office, needs to find people who care more about God than our egos and who will tell us whether what we’re doing is advancing the Kingdom or our vanity—no matter how great we think we are.

    I think there is too much “authority” talk in the church to help Christian men struggling with porn. I think we could use more “accountability” talk.

  69. Cheryl, Post nr. 37 of yours is wonderful news! Even though Calvary Chapel tends to be a gender-based hierarchy to a man in the upper echelons of their leadership, the mere fact that a Messianic Rabbi wants to spread ideas of liberty and emancipation among them is very telling. It means that the spark of freedom which burns in every human breast will not be extinguished by tyrants.

  70. Hi Cheryl,

    I just wanted send a quick note telling you that I think you’re a wonderfully kind and gentle person. Don’t let people tear you down. Although, I like Matt Slick, he’s barely a blip on the radar in the Christian world so I wouldn’t worry to much about what he says about you. I’ll write back later, keep your chin up. God bless you sister.

    Dina

  71. Charis #53

    You wrote: “I’m really not sure that God wants women to be head pastors over men. Look at the kind of abuse they take??GOD cares about us and want to PROTECT us from abusive people!!!”

    Women take abuse because of wickedness in the world. Satan has always had it in for women and he always will. Nevertheless when God calls someone, if they will lean heavily upon the Lord, He will protect them through the abuse and the attempts at abuse. Look at Moses. How many times did they try to kill him. Look at the women God used powerfully. Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Abigail, Esther, Anna, Lydia, Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia and many others.

    When God calls someone to serve Him and His people it’s not about being “over” anyone. One just needs to give what God gives them to give. But you are correct that it isn’t easy in this era. But we must stand for the truth. And we are only saying that Scripture doesn’t prohibit women from being used to teach, preach, lead, or speak forth with anointing. The problem is that there is such a warped view of what Christian ministry is today, that it resembles the power structures of big businesses. And I believe that people today far too often just decide they are going to be such and such without actually being called. And then even those who are called by God fail to yield to the anointing of the H.S. and so lead in carnal programs instead of inspired service.

    For Christians, life is always full of battles, some big and some small. We just need to remember that Christ already won the battles.

    John 16: 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

  72. Cheryl, I am so grieved to hear what is happening with the Canadian Government and your ministry. Moving may not be fruitful as I suspect the US is not far behind. I pray that God will be Glorified and the Gospel proclaimed.

    The biggest shock to me over the past 5 years has been the vitriol coming from professed Christians. I have been the recipient of it in devastating ways. We forget that the way is narrow (Matt 7) and that many will not be acknowledged by our Lord. This is a wake up call for all of us.

    To make keeping women out of ministry the focus of ones life and ministry is scary. It has a magisterial and legalistic ring to it. I have noticed this issue becoming more and more divisive and contentious just in the past 20 years. It is as if Satan found something that really works. If he can keep half of all Christians silent on the Gospel, he has accomplised quite a bit.

    I also agree with you that the accepted concept of ‘authority’ or leadership we find in most churches looks nothing like what was practiced in the NT or what Jesus taught. Sometimes I find it hard to believe I am reading the same bible as some of these teachers. It just grieves me to no end. People end up following men and not Christ.

    You may never know the impact you have had on people with your ministry. The grace and love you show toward those who disagree is contagious. Your ministry about women did not change my mind so to speak…it drove me to scripture to study deeply to see for myself. I am sure that is your intention. One thing I realized is that I did not have the creation account correct at all. And that is the foundation for everything! I owe you a debt of gratitude.

    You are a wonderful, godly teacher.

  73. Charis #53

    You wrote: “I’m really not sure that God wants women to be head pastors over men. Look at the kind of abuse they take??GOD cares about us and want to PROTECT us from abusive people!!!”

    Women take abuse because of wickedness in the world. Satan has always had it in for women and he always will. Nevertheless when God calls someone, if they will lean heavily upon the Lord, He will protect them through the abuse and the attempts at abuse. Look at Moses. How many times did they try to kill him. Look at the women God used powerfully. Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Abigail, Esther, Anna, Lydia, Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia and many others.

    When God calls someone to serve Him and His people it’s not about being “over” anyone. One just needs to give what God gives them to give. But you are correct that it isn’t easy in this era. But we must stand for the truth. And we are only saying that Scripture doesn’t prohibit women from being used to teach, preach, lead, or speak forth with anointing. The problem is that there is such a warped view of what Christian ministry is today, that it resembles the power structures of big businesses. And I believe that people today far too often just decide they are going to be such and such without actually being called. And then even those who are called by God fail to yield to the anointing of the H.S. and so lead in carnal programs instead of inspired service.

    For Christians, life is always full of battles, some big and some small. We just need to remember that Christ already won the battles.

    John 16: 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

  74. Good point brought out earlier, one I’ve had on my mind a lot lately…

    Let the men have their “lodges”, their “boys’ clubs”. Let them live as tyrants over other men and all women. Let them call it Christianity if they want. Let them call us names and persecute us, “thinking they are doing God a favor”.

    We can preach freedom for women to them the same way we preach salvation to the lost. We don’t have to belong to their clubs to do it. But we can get the message out, and provide fellowships to welcome them. Maybe we should stop entering the dens of wolves and just stand outside and preach.

    We don’t need buildings, budgets, bake sales or backing. We don’t need accolades or approval. All we need is to practice the Christian community as the NT tells us, and to bring the truth with us as we go about in life.

  75. Very well said Teknomom. I like it.

  76. Good post teknomom! I agree that we’ll never be able to convince the hard-core old guard of protestant fundamentalism to admit women to the boyz-club. They’re too far gone into their own traditions and regulations although they insist that those regulations are God’s own. What we can do is as you say, hold the beacon of freedom aloft much as Lady Liberty does in New York harbor. Providence willing, there will be some gifted women freed from tyranny enough to step out from under the yoke and not be afraid that they’re sinning against their Creator for exercising what they’ve been endowed with.

  77. FWIIW, since one of the groups divides the workers by 2, guess which group MH or EQ will just naturally grow faster? And I do not for a moment think it is just a natural thing, there is a supernatural element to it also.

  78. “Women may be gifted as Pastors according to Ephesians 4:11. It is God who calls and gifts. As far as head pastors over men, I see nothing in scripture that says that one believer is to take authority over another believer no matter what the gender is. Our concept of authority and a single leader in a church is far from what the early church experienced and far from what the scriptures advocate. Leaders are to be servants not bosses. The leadership is to equip the saints for ministry. They are not to sent forth to bar the saints from ministry.”

    Hey Cheryl,
    Thanks for writing this one! Absolute TRUTH!!

  79. So, I was talking with my friends about the situation… all the vitriol…
    And I was sad after all. It really does bother me…
    and Chris (like a mother to me) said that when Jesus’ mothers and brothers came looking for Him, HE didn’t even invite them in, and HE said

    “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” [49] Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. [50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    She said she had asked herself “WHY did HE ignore HIS mother and brothers there?” She pointed out that JESUS HIMSELF could not perform miracles in HIS hometown because HE was not received. HIS own family did not believe in HIM

    So, HE has been there Cheryl, restricted by unbelief. Their loss! :(

  80. #70 Dina,
    Sorry that I didn’t get a chance to see your comment earlier and free it from the moderation box.

    You said:

    “I just wanted send a quick note telling you that I think you’re a wonderfully kind and gentle person. Don’t let people tear you down. Although, I like Matt Slick, he’s barely a blip on the radar in the Christian world so I wouldn’t worry to much about what he says about you. I’ll write back later, keep your chin up. God bless you sister.”

    My dear, you are a real answer to prayer for me today! I appreciate your encouragement and knowing that you are one from Matt’s side brings me a GREAT amount of comfort that the Lord has been gracious to me. It is difficult enough going through the attacks and trying hard to show God’s patience through it all and to be told that Matt was the hero patiently enduring me and I in essence was the villain when I never once attacked him or called him names as he did to me, was just hard to bear. Then you step forward and speak a word of kindness to me. Thank you!! I trust that God will bless you for this.

  81. # 72 Lin,

    You said:

    “Cheryl, I am so grieved to hear what is happening with the Canadian Government and your ministry. Moving may not be fruitful as I suspect the US is not far behind. I pray that God will be Glorified and the Gospel proclaimed.”

    I too believe that the persecution is bound to intensify until we are all persecuted for righteousness sake. The fact is that the cults are protected under Canadian law even while they rail against the church saying we are all of the devil, while those who bring the gospel to those in the cults are persecuted and sanctioned. Yet my heart says that there is often a cost in following Christ and the discouragement of this action cannot cause me or any of us to retreat. We were genuinely shocked too at first but we have resolutely set our faces to carry on no matter what happens. No one said that ministry would be easy and so it goes on.

    “The biggest shock to me over the past 5 years has been the vitriol coming from professed Christians. I have been the recipient of it in devastating ways. We forget that the way is narrow (Matt 7) and that many will not be acknowledged by our Lord. This is a wake up call for all of us.”

    I have seen some of this shocking behavior from Christians before but never to the extent of what I have seen because of the women’s issue. The one thing that encourages me about the strong and growing vitriol in the complementarian camp is that it is causing some to have their eyes opened. The fruit of this teaching is speaking volumes to those who are desiring to be Christ-like. The best thing that can happen to the complementarian camp is for there to be more people on the extreme end that will be like Matt who is set in his mind to die holding women back from using their God-given gifts in the pulpit. The more extreme they become, the more people will become grieved and they will leave as they see the true divisive nature in this movement. Their worst enemy is their own militant leaders.

    “To make keeping women out of ministry the focus of ones life and ministry is scary.”

    I agree, it is very scary. The problem many will have in leaving hierarchy is that their work will be seen as worthless if they have spent all of their time and resources on stopping godly women. It will be a real humbling experience to admit they have been wrong and their entire ministry has been based on a lie.

    “You may never know the impact you have had on people with your ministry. The grace and love you show toward those who disagree is contagious. Your ministry about women did not change my mind so to speak…it drove me to scripture to study deeply to see for myself. I am sure that is your intention. One thing I realized is that I did not have the creation account correct at all. And that is the foundation for everything! I owe you a debt of gratitude.”

    Lin, I really, really appreciate this word of encouragement. You are correct in that I was trying hard to force people to get their nose into scripture and to rethink the traditions that do not have strong biblical roots as we supposed they had. Once the foundation is shaken in the man-made tradition, we have an opportunity to show how God’s word does not contradict itself and we can hold to both the inspiration of scripture as well as biblical equality.

    “You are a wonderful, godly teacher.”

    I am humbled by your words.

  82. #74 teknomom,

    “We can preach freedom for women to them the same way we preach salvation to the lost. We don’t have to belong to their clubs to do it. But we can get the message out, and provide fellowships to welcome them. Maybe we should stop entering the dens of wolves and just stand outside and preach.

    We don’t need buildings, budgets, bake sales or backing. We don’t need accolades or approval. All we need is to practice the Christian community as the NT tells us, and to bring the truth with us as we go about in life.”

    Wow! Very profound! Thank you for contributing this. And I for one will be staying away from wolf dens and I desire that this forum will be a welcoming place for any complementarian who desires to fellowship with us in the Lord Jesus. When we offer love and respect, I believe that eventually the honest hearted ones will respond as they see Jesus in us.

  83. #52 Charis,

    “They sound like mean, unchristian bullies, but they are really afraid. Afraid of losing control/power.”

    I believe you are right. Sometimes people speak the loudest when they are the most afraid. When who make it their business to stop women from using their God-given gifts for the benefit of the entire body of Christ often are just protecting their own position. There is great fear that they are hiding.

    I am a very gentle person by nature and for Matt to claim that I personally am tearing the church apart because I have produced a very persuasive video series on the women’s issue, just shows his own insecurities. If the work was my own human effort, I can guarantee you I would be ineffective. Rather in my weakness the Lord is strong.

  84. Cheryl,

    Some of the CARM posters now seem to be in a competition to tear you down by using worse and worse terms. I find it very sad. But it is sobering.

  85. Don,
    It is the fruit of Matt’s ministry that causes his followers to rip at the sheep. As they continue to tear me down, I trust that God will use this to open many people’s eyes to the sick fruit of the hierarchical movement. When these true Christians are sick enough of the vitriolic nature of the this entire mindset, I trust that they will leave that camp. A true Christian is one who loves the brethren and will not stand to see the attacks against a fellow Christian over a secondary issue in the church. It is indeed sobering that these folks speak evil with one side of their mouth and claim to know and love Christ with the other side of their mouth.

    Since Matt has publicly claimed that I am a sister in Christ and a “godly woman” then the name-calling over secondary issues and the hatred that spews forth from his followers shows from their fruit that 1 John 2 applies.

    1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

    Jesus has commanded us to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not an option but a command and John goes on:

    1 John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

  86. In a sad way, this may help explain the vitriol. As you are declared a heretic, etc., then this justifies the harsh negative terms, at least in their way of thinking. But as I see it, even a heretic is not to be treated badly, as everyone is made in the image of God, a person who is not a believer is to hear the gospel. And this is where their logic fails, as if they would present the gospel to you, you would readily agree and have already agreed, so you are just continuing to agree, which means you are not a heretic.

  87. Don,
    This proves my point that a heretic is not a heretic in one secondary issue. The term heretic must be kept for those who are distorting the gospel of Christ. We do not have partial terms for heretics because heretics are heretics not brethren in Christ. I do not see how Matt can call me a godly woman and a sister in Christ and then berate me as a heretic and let others do the same. One simply cannot be a Christian and a heretic at the same time. Which is it?

    Paul went from stopping the deceived teachers in 1 Timothy 1 to saying in 1 Timothy 2 that prayers are to be made for all men. If one is deceived then logically one should pray for that person not call them condescending names. Paul spoke about this controversy in 1 Timothy 2:8

    1 Timothy 2:8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

    Paul had already told Timothy that men are to pray for all people and now he says that they are to pray without wrath and dissension. Our love for our brothers/sisters in Christ will cause us to pray for them not to call them names. Name-calling is a divisive ungodly way to deal with these issues in the Christian faith. Anger and dissension are not God’s ways but man’s ways.

  88. Wow! Very profound! Thank you for contributing this. And I for one will be staying away from wolf dens and I desire that this forum will be a welcoming place for any complementarian who desires to fellowship with us in the Lord Jesus. When we offer love and respect, I believe that eventually the honest hearted ones will respond as they see Jesus in us.

    Thanks, Cheryl, but you know any profundity did not originate with me. 😉

    My primary commission seems to be to tell others how to leave The Institution and go back to The Body, and for us to no longer do church but be the church. And that means being all the church, not half of it!

    And I agree with how Matt and his Carmites are being described. 1 John 4:20
    “If someone says, “I love God,” but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar; for if we don’t love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we cannot see?” I really have to question anyone who claims salvation but is filled with hate, which is murder. Passionate defense of one’s convictions, yes; name-calling and defamation of character, no.

    Luke 12:48b says “When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.” Matt has set himself up as a teacher and authority, so his judgment will be severe. God will pay everyone back from what crop they have sown. The one who has been sowing hate will reap death, and the one who has been sowing love will reap life.

    Of course, there will always be those who claim disagreement is hate, but I’ll let God be the judge.

  89. It is not only possible but necessary to express disagreement with love. Matt simply does not practice this. In fact he seems to get his jollies from being obnoxious. Now lest anyone think I have just called him a name, let me say that Matt has described himself as one who is gifted in being obnoxious. I disagree that this is a gift. This is rather the world’s way of handling disagreements. When Matt learns to disagree in a loving way, then his ministry will flourish with both the church and the cults. He has the wisdom in a lot of areas to do a lot of good. His way of handling disagreements with Christians is not biblical. Even though he has called me a godly woman, I have never felt any love from him and he has said not one good word about my personal ministry to Jehovah’s Witnesses. It seems that it suits his style to ignore the good and lift up the disagreement on a secondary issue as if it is the entire focus of scripture. Matt’s stated purpose is that he personally is out to stop women from serving in their God-given gifts when they are teaching or preaching with authority to men. I don’t know where he gets his authority to do this. Nowhere in scripture does it say that one of the duties of an elder is to stop the women from teaching the bible with authority to the men in the body of Christ. Matt has gone above and beyond his “role” in scripture and as a teacher he will have to answer to God for what he is doing.

    In the meantime I agree with teknomom that we need to be going about our Father’s business using our gifts wherever we can. We do not need the approval of the good ol’ boys club and we don’t need to stop because Matt gets in our face. We just need to serve Jesus with all our hearts and do everything to please him and bring him glory and honor. When we stand before God he will only want to know what we have done for him. We must obey God rather than men and no mere man including Matt can stop a godly Christian woman from using her God-given gifts for the benefit of both men and women.

  90. Yes, the seeds have been planted, and it’s time to move on to other “pastors” (get it?). How the soil reacts is not our problem, although we should be careful not to throw it all on rocks (of all kinds).

    The hierarchy teachers just don’t get it: they cannot stop us. Perhaps, like when Paul told the Jews he would now turn to the Gentiles, we need to tell the hierarchy teachers that they had their chance, and now we will turn to the people directly. And I think blogs like this are the spearhead of a breath of fresh air to all believers.

  91. PS: Cheryl, I wrote a summary of what I understand the egalitarian position to be, at my blog. Please let me know what you think. I’m sure it can be improved.

  92. Paula,

    I found 5 typos which can be easily found using Word spellcheck.

    You should be aware that the more you use unusual translations the more some people will not accept what you say or at least wonder about it. I use unusual translations myself, but try to keep it to a minimum, as a final resort.

  93. Don,

    Thanks, I’ll check it. But I don’t do Windoze, so no Word Spellcheck, but I have other tools.

    The reason for the unusual translations is that the “mainstream” ones have been perpetuating errors, even after the important manuscript discoveries of the 1800s and 1970s. My only alternative would be to go to the original languages, but that won’t do much good for the average English reader. I have more about that in other articles.

    I do hope those weren’t the most important things about the article! :-)

  94. Teknomom,
    I have downloaded your article and will go through it as I have time. Thank you for taking the time to put this piece up and for thinking of my opinion as worthy of consideration.

  95. It is the fruit of Matt’s ministry that causes his followers to rip at the sheep. As they continue to tear me down, I trust that God will use this to open many people’s eyes to the sick fruit of the hierarchical movement. When these true Christiansare sick enough of the vitriolic nature of the this entire mindset, I trust that they will leave that camp. A true Christian is one who loves the brethren and will not stand to see the attacks against a fellow Christian over a secondary issue in the church. It is indeed sobering that these folks speak evil with one side of their mouth and claim to know and love Christ with the other side of their mouth.

    You and I don’t know what motivates their behavior. I have quite a lot of personal experience with people I am tempted to consign to my “unchristian” file. “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.” 2Cor 2:15 The ones within the church walls who behave badly have a distinctly difficult “aroma” to tolerate. But can you see how even they serve their purpose? (You are the oyster and they throw sand in you. You make pearls from the sand, Cheryl.)

    I really like the passage in 2Tim 2:20-26 which talks about how to be transformed from a bedpan full of -you know what- to a “vessel fit for the master’s use”. Interesting how the master has both “in HIS house”. I think some people will choose to remain a bedpan their whole life and go to heaven that way. They are, after all, “in HIS house” according to the scriptures.
    I’ve been in the process of having all that stinky sewage cleaned out of me!
    Not easy, but GOOD!

  96. Good points, Charis. And they touch on the whole infant vs. mature disciple debate. Some (particularly the “Lordship Salvation” view) insist that without external evidence (based upon arbitrary criteria), people must not be saved. I’m not saying Cheryl is suggesting any such thing, but that some people say so explicitly.

    Personally, I believe there are some very carnal Christians, but Christians nonetheless. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians were written to exactly those types of people. Those who seem to have external signs of maturity and discipleship will certainly be rewarded, but those without such external signs will have all of their works “burned up” (1 Cor. 3) yet be saved themselves.

    Matt is thus a good case study or cautionary tale. On one hand he does have some “gold and precious gems” regarding the cults for example. But on the other he has “wood, hay, stubble” regarding hierarchy and what I’d call the “Diotrephes Complex” (3 John 1:9). The refining fire of judgment will consume all he has built up that is ungodly and proud.

    So we all can take warning from Matt’s example. We must be careful to avoid the worthless things we think are so pretty or admirable but to God are trash. Matt has made “straw” the cornerstone of his ministry, and we know what happens to a building with a bad foundation. But that only highlights the need for ALL members of Christ’s body to help each other, not telling half that they are worthless to the “presentable parts”. Only by honestly listening to each other will we get rid of the trash in our lives.

  97. Good post Teknomom :)

    Cheryl wrote:
    the hatred that spews forth from his followers shows from their fruit that 1 John 2 applies.

    1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

    Jesus has commanded us to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not an option but a command and John goes on:

    1 John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

    As far as Matt’s followers goes, they are blind sheep IMHO.
    Coming into agreement with lies will sow pain into their lives :(
    There was a time when I would beat myself up with the verses you quoted above.
    I didn’t feel any love for my husband; I hated him. And he is a christian, so he is a “brother”, right? SO where does that leave me according to 1John 2:4 and 2:9?

    This helped me:

    1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
    17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    I can see, in my own life, that when I practice 1 John 1:8-9, that GOD teaches me and brings about growth as I seek to overcome sin in my life through confession, prayer, meditation upon the Word… SO in a paradoxical kind of way, when I lay my sin down at the foot of the cross, it brings me deeper in my spiritual LIFE with the Lord. I see sin in his life!!! And I am indignant, especially when it hurts my children, but I can PRAY that “that God will give him life” because I don’t know if it is a “sin unto death” or not, (and so far its not because he’s still alive)

  98. I believe that what John is writing about is the fruit of practiced sin. In other words this is the habit that one practices i.e. one practices hatred and therefore unforgiveness. A true Christian may hate and have unforgiveness but a true Christian will not stay in the situation because as John says one who practices sin is not born again. We sin, we repent, we live in victory and then we sin again. In the life of the true Christian there will be repentance. There has to be. Jesus said that if we do not forgive someone who has wronged us, neither will the Heavenly Father forgive us. Forgiveness is not an option but a requirement.

    The problem with Matt’s followers is that they are practicing hatred. I do not know where the division comes between sinning and practicing that sin as a habit, but the fruit is not good.

    I too know what it is like to hate. When I let hatred rule my life I could not have peace with God. It was impossible for me. But when I let it go, God gave me peace. Years ago I had to do that with my husband. I had no love for him but God told me to love him. I started by telling him I loved the shirt he was wearing or I loved the way he combed his hair. I did as much as I could and the amazing thing is that he responded. After a period of time, I got back my love for my husband and he was treating me differently. We still had lots of problems to work out because we both still were under the hierarchical mindset, but in time God worked that out too and several years ago we both came out and we are VERY happily married. I adore my husband and I wouldn’t be married to anyone else. I no longer have any feelings of hatred and because I practiced what God gave to me, I came free in Christ.

    Sometimes practicing forgiveness and practicing love doesn’t change anything in the other person. That certainly is possible. But what it does is free You to experience the best that God has for you. I know what it is like to dream about divorce because I was so unhappy in my marriage and to go from that to a one-flesh union where my husband respects me and gives me everything I need to be emotionally happy.

    So again, what John is talking about is practicing hate. A true Christian cannot continue to practice hate and experience God’s love and the same time. There has to come a time of confession and repentance. God will turn things around and he can do it little by little as he did it with me. I hated and I repented and I am now whole. Those who stay in the hatred and who do not repent will never know God’s freedom and their sins will not be forgiven. Jesus said this and it is very, very important to pay attention.

    I will email you later regarding this issue.

    Blessings,
    Cheryl

  99. Dear Sisters and Brothers in Christ
    Jesus and Paul spent as little time as possible defending themselves, their call and their message. Only when absolutely necessary did they respond to the criticisms. These things are only coming about to distract us from the real issue – “Spreading The Gospel”. If we spend too much time and thought in a defensive mode then we cant advance because it takes offensive approaches to excel, to progress and to conquer. We know who we are, we know who called us and we know we are equipt..Let’s let our works speak for themselves. Let’s continue to edify, encourage, build and bring in as we were commissioned. When we are put in a place where we HAVE TO defend ourselves, the Holy Spirit in us will speak through us. I commend you all for taking your stand but let us study Jesus’ and Pauls approach to the questions – even in their defense they used the opportunity to promote The Kingdom of God, they turned defensive situations in to opportunities to witness to their accusers. WWJD? Minister Doretta Lee, Waterbury, CT

  100. Doretta,
    Thank you for your comments. You are very right in that much if not most of the time we do not need to defend ourselves against an attack. When we do need to give a defense, it should be done in love and respect for the audience who may need to see Jesus in us. The Holy Spirit is definitely our help in living a respectful example so that we can keep on with our business of giving the gospel out until Jesus comes.

  101. Cheryl
    I will go on my knees on behalf of you need as soon as I press return on this comment. Just keep professing that the truth will prevail and watch God work. It may not be exactly how you want it but it will be what’s needed. God is in control, the bible says “the steps of a righteous man (person) are ordered by God”. Therefore, no weapon formed against you shall prosper. Continue to be a blessing and trust God.
    Much Love From Dee

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